Toad World® Forums

Toad for Cloud: SQL statements on NoSQL databases like SimpleDB, Apache Hadoop HBase and Azure Table Services?


#1

Hi folks

I read in news that Toad for Cloud is released in beta. What will be
the price tag?
Did i understood right? You can use SQL statements on NoSQL databases
like SimpleDB, Apache Hadoop HBase and Azure Table Services? It means
you don’t need to learn NoSQL product syntax?

cheers Sven


#2

We have a community for Toad for Cloud here –

http://toadforcloud.com/forum.jspa?forumID=1199

1)It’s Free!

2)Yes, you understand exactly J


#3

Slightly Off Topic but:

Am I the only one here who is highly suspicious of “the cloud”? I have a
few troubles:

  • I see it as a way for one or two big vendors to get total and complete
    control over your data and potentially your customer list!

  • How do I know for certain that the backup regime that they say they
    are carrying out is actually what they are carrying out?

  • How do I know that their system is secure and that none of my
    competitors can get hold of my data/customer details?

  • What happens to my data (and indeed, applications) when the vendor
    goes under or is taken over by Microsoft - for example - just exactly
    how stuffed am I at that point?

  • Why has cloud raised it’s ugly head again anyway, it failed miserably
    the last time it was here! (a bit like the iPad when they were called
    Tablet!)

I can see the advantages of course, I can pay only for the servers and
power I need when I need it, and ramp up extra processing for end of
year etc and I don’t have to pay for all that hardware and its upkeep,
but the security of my data means more to me - after all, data is the
lifeblood of most, if not all, companies. If Microsoft, for example, get
their hands on my customer list, I’m up that famous creek and taking the
might Microsoft to court over it is not an option as they have a
bottomless pit of money whereas most other companies don’t! Justice is
only for those who can pay.

Rant over!

Cheers,
Norm. [TeamT]

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#4

Norm!

  • How do I know for certain that the backup regime that they say they
    are carrying out is actually what they are carrying out?

You don’t. There are several examples of failed websites after the ISP
suffered HW losses w/o valid backups. The only way to be sure is to back
the data up yourself, which defeats the cloud purpose to a large extent,
IMNSHO.

  • Why has cloud raised it’s ugly head again anyway, it failed miserably
    the last time it was here! (a bit like the iPad when they were called
    Tablet!)

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
Fortunately we have Moore’s Law and better marketing now. Or maybe that’s
just my Android-powered Archos 5 IMT (the iTouch4 way before it comes out)
talking, which I much prefer over tightly-controlled Granny Smiths.

I can see the advantages of course, I can pay only for the servers and
power I need when I need it, and ramp up extra processing for end of
year etc and I don’t have to pay for all that hardware and its upkeep,

It’s been a few years, but I imagine that most of Europe still pays ‘net
bandwidth by the MB, no? See where I’m headed here? What about network
redundancy and latency? How much training will be required for programming
staff to be able to minimize net traffic in apps? And I’m just gettin’
started…

Not a fan. Might just be the paranoid DBA in me. Perhaps a better fit for
startups with ambition and who see IT as an obstruction rather than a
service department?

My $.02,
Rich – [TeamT]

Disclaimer: I’ve not had my tea yet.


#5

I think devs will love the cloud and dbas will hate it.


#6

I think devs will love the cloud and dbas will hate it.


#7

I think devs will love the cloud and dbas will hate it.

Perhaps some devs… but not all Devs.

This particular Dev with a bit of a background in computer security has just as
many issues as Norm has voiced.

Some are the same, but not all of course, I’m not concerned with
“why” it’s there :wink:

For example, take the additional concerns of being reliant on a third-party to
get their API’s correct and get the most up-to-date information to you.

While I agree that we should not re-invent the wheel there’s a certain
amount of lack-of-trust when your selected vendor does not wish to disclose just
how their wheel is shaped, what type and quality of material is used, etc.

Roger S.


#8

Yeah, so I should have definitely qualified that statement J

The sources I’ve read basically say for the 1 to few person development
shops, being able to offload the database to a service will be extremely
convienent, esp for startups who can’t afford the tech or the people who
know the tech to build their own.

This of course freaks out the DBAs.

Anyway, we’ve had Cloud for a long time. This Toad is more about
accessing data from the NoSQL sources, whether they are Cloud or local. A
friend of mine just setup a Hadoop cluster on a couple of laptops in his
basement for example.


#9

… the 1 to few person development shops, being able to

offload the database to a service will be extremely convienent

Ahh… now I see… so it could be re-worded as:

“If you don’t know anything, or very little, don’t bother
learning, let us take care of your data and application in the Cloud!”

RAS


#10

Exactly

I’ve ran into more than a few developers who treat the database as a
flat-file anyway

Build it fast, built it cheap


#11

I’ve ran into more than a few developers

who treat the database as a flat-file anyway

What???

I’m shocked… you mean the database isn’t a flat file?

Heh, just kidding.

The first interview I ever got after graduating as a software developer was a
small business that wanted exactly that:


#12

Hi Jeff,

I’ve ran into more than a few developers who treat the
database as a flat-file anyway
Yes, me too. We pay huge sums of money for Oracle licenses and to use
all the features that Oracle supply us with, “fully” tested and working
efficiently, then the developers rewrite lots of it in Java, it’s slow,
bug ridden and pointless and then only use the (expensive) database for
storing “hibernated” objects. Thankfully, I’m not a violent axe wielding
homicidal maniac, but if I was …

My “favourite” is when they use the middle tier to cache the database
data. Then complain that the database is broken because the data changed
and their code didn’t notice and their trendy middle tier cache is out
of date. That’s when the need to be an AWHM is uppermost!

Build it fast, built it cheap
Then pay lots to have it fixed and made top work properly afterwards eh?

Cheers,
Norm. [TeamT]

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Information in this message may be confidential and may be legally privileged. If you have received this message by mistake, please notify the sender immediately, delete it and do not copy it to anyone else.

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#13

Hi Jeff,

The sources I’ve read basically say for the 1 to few person
development shops, being able to offload the database to a
service will be extremely convenient, esp for startups who
can’t afford the tech or the people who know the tech to
build their own.
Sounds good, but two seconds Googling will find you OracleXE, Firebird,
MySQL, Postgresql even SQL Server express edition if you must, all for
free.

This of course freaks out the DBAs.
Nah, most DBAs that I know and/or work with were freaked out years ago!
I think it’s in the job spec!

:slight_smile:

Cheers,
Norm. [TeamT]

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#14

Rich,

It’s been a few years, but I imagine that most of Europe
still pays 'net
bandwidth by the MB, no? See where I’m headed here?
Not in the UK! I pay a flat monthly fee and get 20MB broadband. I can up
it to 50MB for a further fee if I like.

Others are still on dialup as they are too far from the switches to
allow ADSL to work. They will have to pay a monthly ISP fee and a
per-minute telecoms fee. And they will be limited to using a 56K modem!

network redundancy and latency? How much training will be required
for programming staff to be able to minimize net traffic in apps?
Well, given that most app developers nowadays don’t know how Oracle
works, what a network round trip is, or how to code properly in OCI,
then I don’t have much hope for the cloud.

And don’t even think about developers and coding for RAC! How many apps
parse ever statement multiple times, use full table scans all the time?

And I’m just gettin’ started…
Probably best that I don’t start then …
We’d be here all week!

Disclaimer: I’ve not had my tea yet.
Tea? I thought you US chaps and chapesses drank coffee (=12648430) since
the last time you held a Tea Party in Boston?

Cheers,
Norm. [TeamT]

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#15

We should probably move this discussion to the Toad Cloud boards, I’d hate
to ‘rain’ on the other Toad users J


#16

Hi Jeff,

We should probably move this discussion to the Toad Cloud
boards, I’d hate to ‘rain’ on the other Toad users J
I think I’ve had my say on the matter now, I’ll duck out.

Besides, I don’t want to encounter the wrath of the Thought Police -
using the Web during work hours is severely frowned upon.

Cheers,
Norm. [TeamFirewalled]

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Information in this message may be confidential and may be legally privileged. If you have received this message by mistake, please notify the sender immediately, delete it and do not copy it to anyone else.

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#17

“There’s an element of trust required that there is just no getting around. Companies have to trust somebody. They trust their accountants, their lawyers, the phone company to transmit their phone calls, and at some point they will become more & more comfortable with companies holding their data on their servers.”

Those words were spoken by Dave Gerard, president of Google Enterprise which sells GoogleApps to businesses.

I saw it on a tv show many months back. But it struck me as such an incredible statement that I committed it to memory. I think we’re seeing this occur in our own day, for so many reasons. I consider it the “Inevitability of Trust,” and I think there’s a large degree of technological evolution to it. Google is pushing things so far that even if it pulls back, it has redefined the horizon.

Another remarkable thing to me is a recent study which showed that the “smarter and more intuitive” software gets, the dumber the user gets. Even when not using the software! Software which is clunky to use, difficult and unhelpful forces the user to engage themselves on a deep level. Initially, the users of this kind of software take a lot longer to accomplish their tasks. But after awhile, a point is reached where they surpass the users of the same software product but which has been “polished up” with all sorts of helpful things. It was discovered that the reason is that the brains of the users of ‘difficult, unintuitive software’ kick into high gear, while the other groups’ brains start doing what brains do best - get really lazy.

So with software getting so ridiculously simple to use, relatively speaking, you now have people who lack the traditional deep, vertical experience and education capable of performing really complex tasks who actually want to do things once relegated only to the expert.

I liken this path to that of tax preparation. In the beginning you had complex tax forms and the specialists (accountants) to help out. Then along came software, but initially it was still complex, so the accountants were the ones to use the software. Now the software is so easy to use, the regular joe is doing it for himself. Accountants are still needed, to a degree, but their role has been reduced and redefined.

People are fond of saying, “if you haven’t cut your teeth on X, you don’t belong using Toad,” as though there are some ancient rites of passage that we’ve all had to go through that we want everyone else to experience or else they aren’t worthy. I think it’s all rather silly and egotistical. I don’t see the earth spinning out of its orbit, I see less experienced users demanding that Toad become ever simpler to use, and a willing band of developers ready to accommodate them, which will, in turn, make them dumber.

Cheers!


#18

I would like to reply to the following

“People are fond of saying, “if you haven’t cut your teeth on X, you don’t belong using Toad,” as though there are some ancient rites of passage that we’ve all had to go through that we want everyone else to experience or else they aren’t worthy. I think it’s all rather silly and egotistical. I don’t see the earth spinning out of its orbit, I see less experienced users demanding that Toad become ever simpler to use, and a willing band of developers ready to accommodate them, which will, in turn, make them dumber.”

Unlike ACCESS Toad is not a database but a GUI wrapper for a real database. I am probably one of the most guilty grouches who always says “you must know SQL before using Toad”. But the problem is that incompetent bosses often give a neophyte TOAD and then tell him to do Oracle DBA stuff or Oracle Programming stuff. These people get lost and ask for help. There is a saying “give a man a fish and he eats once, teach him how to fish and he eats for a lifetime”. I have always felt by saying “Learn SQL” I am starting the person on the road to fishing.


#19

I think the chief concern is that if that neophyte DBA uses and advanced feature
like our interface DBMS_RDEFINITION and has no idea of the questions/options
offered and the proper choices – then they simply end NOT to blame TOAD.
It’s not the shotguns fault if you shoot off your foot (or your vice
presidential hunting partner). If you have the database priv to do it – we
simply make it easier to get into trouble when you don’ know what
you’re doing ……


#20

People are fond of saying, "if you haven’t cut your teeth on X,

you don’t belong using Toad," as though there are some ancient

rites of passage that we’ve all had to go through that we want

everyone else to experience or else they aren’t worthy.

.

.

Unlike ACCESS Toad is not a database but a GUI wrapper for

a real database.

I’ll have to agree with both sentiments… as well as Berts, but
disagree with Mark on the context. While there are cases of some individuals
requiring someone to “go through an initiation” – like
insisting someone that wants to learn how to use a word processor use vi or ed
first :wink: – there is a very valid point to requiring someone to at least
gain a certain minimal education.

One of the saddest things I’ve witnessed is a Tech school producing
software developers who don’t even know the basics behind debugging their
own code. To myself, debugging is one of those “must learn about”
foundations along with the 3 basic logic structures (straight flow, if, loop).
To myself, it’s like learning how to apply the math formula for
calculating interest payments without bothering to first learn about how to add,
subtract, multiply and divide. Bottom line: you lose the tool and you suddenly
become completely ineffective. It doesn’t just slow you down, it literally
halts your performance till you get the basic education.

So… while I agree with the sentiment that going through a sort of
initiation is something that can be avoided, I’m a firm believer that the
foundations have incredibly strong value. As Erwin said, it’s important to
teach the man how to fish… sure… you could give him a tool that does
his fishing for him, but then what happens when the tool is no longer available?

Roger S.